accident sonex N610DJ

[BRS]

@kip,
That is helpful information/technique. Thanks.

[builderflyer]

In my 56 years of flying, I've never had an engine failure that has led to a forced landing either on or off an airport runway. But I suspect that if the situation should arise, and especially at the lower heights above ground, the panel is what receives the least attention by the pilot. Looking for the safest place to land is likely where the pilot is most focused. So in that regard, having an audible AOA feature on board could be life saving and the Dynon Skyview has just such a capability. The audible AOA has been calibrated by the pilot in that very aircraft during the initial testing. The sound heard by the pilot begins as a slow beep that goes faster and faster until it becomes a solid tone whereupon the aircraft better be within a couple of feet of touching down. So unless beginning the round out to land, upon hearing the first beep, it's time to release a bit of back pressure on the stick. No focusing on the airspeed indicator is absolutely necessary while the pilot is busy maneuvering to the safest landing spot.

Just my thoughts...........never put to the test under an actual engine out emergency.

Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sonex taildragger #95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jabiru 3300 #261

[Scott Todd]

I've had a few engine outs in my 35 years of flying. Fortunately they were always over good terrain and the landings were uneventful. But I teach it every time I'm with a student. There is a bit of an issue with builderflyers method. Maneuvering close to the ground in an engine out is the wrong place to be anywhere close to a stall. Hearing an audible indicator and releasing back pressure will almost always be disastrous. You are sinking, close to the ground, and a stall warning goes off. Releasing the back pressure makes you sink faster. Bad plan! Just NEVER get there. Fly the attitude of the airplane. You will find if the nose never goes above the horizon, you won't be near stall. I hammer this point home. While practicing, watch the airspeed and correlate it to the attitude of the airplane. Practice, Practice, Practice. Then if you are dead stick, even simulated, know the attitude you need to keep. Your eyes will be outside where they belong and you will NEVER get close to stall. Once you get to the flare point, it becomes a normal landing.

People just won't go practice it. They think a simulated engine-out and running the emergency checklist for the Instructor during a flight review is sufficient. WRONG! I make them do it at least 5 times during a flight review. It may seem overkill but go look at the number one reason people die in small aircraft accidents. Watch Dan's videos!

[builderflyer]

Scott, I don't disagree with you at all. But, given the large number of stall-spin accidents that occur too frequently, pilots are just not always practicing and/or employing the excellent method you teach. So my suggestion of utilizing an audible AOA, which provides a warning considerably above stall speed, was to avoid that which is the real killer, arriving at the ground, out of control, in a near vertical attitude. Not optimizing the engine out glide distance may be the lesser price to pay. Just my thought.

Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sonex taildragger #95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jabiru 3300 #261

[Sonex1517]

I’m gonna toss my two cents in here because this topic is near to me for many reasons, not the least of which is that I successfully landed my Sonex after losing oil pressure in flight.

When I built my Sonex, I installed an LRI - and went to great lengths to calibrate it and learn how to use it. While it does not provide an audible response, it is in my line of sight as I look out the windscreen.

The Sonex is easy to fly, easy to land, and as many others mention, certainly tells you when it’s not happy. But any airplane can kill you.

My point here is whatever tools you have or choose to install, learn how to use them, learn how YOUR airplane behaves in every scenario possible, and practice landing without power until you know where you will touch down.

When it happened to me, I used my LRI and the experience I had gained in my airplane to produce a successful outcome. I also do WINGS training regularly, seek additional instruction and regularly do both pattern work and engine out scenarios.

I’ll shut up now and return to trying to stay warm in the balmy 0°F weather here in Chicagoland.

[GraemeSmith]

People just won't go practice it. They think a simulated engine-out and running the emergency checklist for the Instructor during a flight review is sufficient.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(in spades)

We are remarkably BAD at getting it right first time we try something. You have to practice, be proficient and on your game.

Elsewhere I have commented about 180 turn backs and the VERY different sight picture of a downwind landing and the need to fly the airspeed and not the normal sight picture. How did I come to that conclusion? Practice. Trying it and Practicing.

Few years back I had an engine quit while operating on top in PA. "NRST" on the GPS offered an airport 12 miles away and I had altitude for a 10 mile glide.... But practice had me immediately getting the plane to an optimized Vg. With the help of an aft CG and a very slight tail wind and PRACTICE (plus a little luck) - I made it through the clouds and onto the runway. This is not to blow my own trumpet. As I say very clearly in the Safety Talk I give about the event - it was because I practiced and practiced the scenario.. Going flying and can't think of anything to do? Go PRACTICE stuff.

[jerryhain]

As a flight instructor I can tell you that not just most of the time but every time I cover up the airspeed indicator people start flying much better and their air speed control is always better. You have to keep your eyes out of the cockpit and glance at the airspeed indicator to confirm what you already know from location of the horizon.
The YX is a very easy aircraft to fly and land as long as you have less than 15 knots of crosswind. I haven’t got the aerocarb sorted out yet on my YX so most of my engine off landings come from not moving the mixture with the throttle.
Most of the engine failures I’ve had have come from aircraft that were being returned to flight status after long-term storage. Every time I fly I expect the engine to quit and have a plan on where to go every moment of every flight. I’ve never been a fan of low and slow because the dangers of having un-landable areas below me most of the time.
Bottom line is know your aircraft and practice often enough that it becomes a big annoyance instead of a real emergency.

[Scott Todd]

Robbie says good stuff. Its all about situational awareness, practice, and knowing your airplane. Builderflyer is missing a point. I (we) don't give a rats behind about optimal glide distance. Its about the speed or attitude of the airplane. Dan's video talk about calculating DMMS and marking your airspeed indicator. When I mention these to most students, their eyes glaze over and the math usually goes over their head. But ask them what the best glide speed for their airplane is and they usually know it. But the point is to teach them to recognize and to maintain the proper attitude.This is around best glide speed.

Everything Jerry said is all about this. Read it again :) Attitude! We don't hear the success stories as much as the crashes but a good example is Jeff Shultz's forced landing in his Sonex. He did everything right. He ended up damaging his airplane but walked away uninjured. Practice, Practice, Practice!

[WesRagle]

Hi Guys,

Lots of good discussion. There does seem to be a common thread running through this rash of accidents that not getting much discussion. Of course we'll leave the NTSB to do their job but ...

https://barnstormers.com/classified-1633883-SONEX-B-Needs-Repair.html

Why?

https://sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6019

Why?

And now this thread.
"The airplane engine lost power, and the pilot was unable to restart the engine."

Why?

BTW, as I write this, we're at 6 Deg. F. down here near DFW under bright sunny skies.

Wes

[builderflyer]

Well I'm not sure what it is that I'm missing. My original message on this topic was to suggest a valid alternative means of avoiding the all too common stall spin accident, given the distraction of having an engine out and having to locate the safest place to land in short order, at relatively low altitude. The fact that many pilots are not paying attention to their air speed indicator or even the expected sight picture of an established glide is a given in that they wouldn't otherwise stall and spin their aircraft under these trying circumstances. And, my suggestion doesn't necessarily require practice, practice, practice. As few hours as most pilots fly in a year, if the solution were to be as simple as "practice" more (and it may be).......it just isn't going to happen as it would necessitate that nearly every flight would be a practice flight and that's not a realistic expectation. So whether it be an audible alert, or in Robbie's case, a visual cue in the windshield that doesn't require the pilot to remove their eyes from from the windshield and the focus on the intended area of landing, then that's a good thing. Please note that my suggestion is not one to be applied for an engine out at the higher altitudes where a significant amount time is available before touching down such the ones experienced by Jeff or Graeme. ........these fellows both did an amazing job in bringing their airplanes down as safely as possible but they also had the time necessary to think through the process and consider the alternatives available without facing the "immediate" distraction of landing their airplanes without power.

I don't have anything more to say on this topic. All are welcome to take it or leave it as they choose.

Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sonex taildragger #95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jabiru 3300 #261